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It’s hard to believe, but we’ve had our Winnebago EKKO, Number One, for over three years now. This makes me feel old.
But do our batteries feel old?
Shortly after getting our EKKO, I embarked on The 20k Project, where I installed 20,000 watt hours of capacity in our EKKO, and made some other improvements. We chronicled that in a series of 4 videos. And I closed that out by saying we’d come back in a while and let everyone know how it was going and how our batteries were doing. It’s been three years now… that time has finally come, and the video is below.
The Lithionics Battery App
To do a 3-year checkup on our batteries, I go into detail with the Lithionics Battery app, which works with Bluetooth-enabled Lithionics batteries. There really is a lot of information in the app, and I walk through all of it, including what I use to keep tabs on our own battery bank. You don’t have to have five batteries – the app is just as useful for managing one. And after watching this video, you’ll know what information is available to you. The app has two pages of information per battery. The first page is a “right now” page, with in-the-moment readings, and the second page is more in-depth, and has relevant lifetime and odometer type statistics.
So How Are We Doing?
Well, you’ll need to watch the video for the full story, but here are a couple top-line results from our battery checkup.
- After 3 years of use, our fully-charged battery has 319 Amp Hours of capacity left of its original 320. That’s 99.7% of our original capacity remaining. Amazing.
- In spite of our linear stack of parallel batteries, each battery is still carrying approximately 1/5 of the total load – each within 2.5% of all the other batteries.
Based on that, I’m going to keep doing what I’ve been doing, and I don’t foresee any immediate changes to our usage or installation.
Help Me by Taking This Survey
Well, actually, it will help us all! I’m genuinely curious about the “Aging Factor Temp” and “Aging Factor SOC”. I know what my values are, but I have no idea if those are good numbers or not. I really want to collect some data on this. SO… if you have Lithionics batteries, please dig in to your battery app and take the survey that I’ll link here:
Lithionics Battery Aging Survey
You will need to plug in and get your batteries charged to 100%, but that’s the only prep work you’ll need to do. I won’t be grading anything, I just want to collect and share the data. I’m also specifically not collecting email, or any other personally identifying information. I just want to know how these batteries age. (I’d bet Lithionics would like to know as well!)
We’ll see if I get enough responses to be meaningful. I’ll publish the results on the website in a separate post when I’ve been able to analyze the data.
Cheers!
Another great video, James. Thanks!
I had one question to try to understand the principle. You mentioned that the SOC age applies to how long you hold the battery at max charge, but doesn’t the float stage protect from this? Or does this SOC aging happen any time it’s at 100%? Or something else?
Thanks again.
Well, here’s the official definition, if this helps:
The Formula for Aging Factor SOC is Fc = ∑hours(V>13.8) + ∑hours(V>14.2) + ∑hours(V<10.8)
It means that “time in hours” is counted while battery is above 13.8V but counted at a double rate when above 14.2V and counted at a normal rate when below 10.8V.
The formula is applied only when battery is not charging (so, SOC not 100%). The time counter is paused during charging, as voltage is expected to be higher during charging.
For example, if battery is fully charged, but continuously held at 14.4V after charge is finished, then Fc will increment by 2 for every hour until voltage is allowed to rest down.
So let’s say you’re plugged in to shore power and charged to 100%. When morning breaks and the sun comes up, your solar charge controller will wake up and start its bulk charge phase, even though it doesn’t need to. That’s one example of how you could accumulate hours.
I completed the survey a few days after you requested it. Any results yet?
Ah. Thanks for the reminder!
There’s a new version of the battery firmware (coming soon or already released?) that is supposed to have some new battery life metrics in it. I may try to combine the results with that update.
Hi James: We have a 22 Ekko (2021 ford transit) and the lithium battery is not charging. We’re near Sedona, so getting decent sun for the solar panels. The only thing running is the refrigerator on nighttime mode. The battery will run down all the way. It wasn’t even charging when we were driving the Ekko, but it will charge if we plug it in. Any ideas of where to start looking?
Sorry but I’m not a tech person, but if you can recommend some ideas, my partner will try. Thanks,
Well, if it charges on shore power, but not while driving, then the problem isn’t the batteries themselves or the inverter/charger.
I would look at either the alternator itself, or the alternator controller (Balmar).
If you go to the Facebook “EKKO Owners and Wannabes” group, there should be troubleshooting steps available by searching “Balmar”
Our Ekko has two factory-installed batteries. It has had the jumper cable replacement and recall 174. Will fill out the form once our batteries come up to full charge. At the moment I will remark that Winnebago’s laddering of the batteries results in much different loading of the batteries. At low draws such as just running the lights and refrigerator, the one in the outboard position, which is directly connected to the coach, discharges faster and deeper than the piggybacked battery. At high draws, such as running the AC or induction stove, discharge is more equal. The outboard battery has 23,285 Total Consumed Ah and Aging Factor SOC 1989. The piggybacked battery reports 15,106 Ah consumed and Aging Factor SOC 2153. My interpretation is the piggybacked battery has a higher AFSOC because it discharges less and spends more time at high voltage while the other battery finishes charging. To the extent the AFSOC means anything, the battery that is being used less is aging faster!
Thoughts on reconnecting the batteries to the coach “diagonally” now that our warranty has expired?
I would have changed the connections to my batteries even in advance of warranty expiration. The “piggybacked” wiring that I’ve seen is honestly just wrong. Your data illustrates that.
Curious how you changed the Battery ID? I know how to change the “name” but don’t see any option to change the ID.
I don’t remember the exact steps. It was part of the process for switching to the Nations Alternator and CAN-based charging.
I think there was a terminal command I had to type in. Something like “set id” or some such.
If you’re implementing a CAN-based charging solution, Lithionics should be able to get you the info on the steps.
Hi James,
Here is the link to a video Lithionics put out on changing the battery ID and CANSA address for multiple battery installs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIHByzKV9wU
Yes. That’s the procedure we followed.
I’m only half nerd married to a full nerd. But this post is very interesting and enjoy reading responses.
Yeah, the discussion and additional data points in the comments are pretty interesting.
I really enjoyed your video and am certainly looking forward to seeing your survey results and conclusions.
I installed a 320 AH Lithionics battery 22 months ago and after only a few weeks I noticed I was accumulating SOC aging hours. I spent several months tracking my accumulating hours to better understand what was driving my SOC aging factor. I discussed my concerns with Lithionics and after reviewing all my charger settings (GoPower Solar controller, Xantrex inverter, Kisae DC-DC charger) were correct and confirming each charger was cycling through the bulk, absorb, and float modes appropriately, I reluctantly came to the conclusion my accumulating SOC aging hours were “normal” and I should stop worrying about the accumulating hours.
That said, I did observe that the majority of my SOC aging hours were being accumulated on days when we were driving and the Kisae DC-DC charger was topping up the battery. More specifically, I would accumulated 2-4 SOC aging hours on driving days when the battery achieved 100% charge and our day included 2 or 3 stops.
I assume you have a copy of Lithionics “What are the aging factors?”…but if not, its available on their web site under Support.
After completing your survey I realized you were probably expecting the temperature data in deg F and not deg C which is what I entered
If I see unusually low temperature numbers, I’ll convert them. Thanks for the heads up.
Yes, I’ve read the aging factors paper, and I’ve also had some detailed discussions with Lithionics. I agree it’s probably impossible to avoid the SOC aging if you actually use your RV. I wish I had been tracking them better all along, and I could see if they slowed down when we installed our CAN-based alternator charge controller. The standard Balmar controller in the EKKO runs a time-based program. Basically, every time you start the engine, it restarts, and you’ll get a couple hours of bulk and absorption charging even if your batteries don’t need it. Our CAN-based charger drops the charging to float as soon as the batteries top off. It’s my hope that is slowing our aging – but again, I neglected to collect the aging data from the beginning, so it’s all just a guess.
Our fastest SOC aging accumulation (27 Ah of use to get 1 more SOC aging) was without Balmar working and with solar always on. Our lowest rate of accumulation was with Balmar not working and solar on only when needed (228 Ah of use to get 1 more SOC aging). Since our Balmar is working we do see an increase in rate of SOC accumulation (63 Ah of use to get 1 more SOC aging). It seems clear to me, every time we go through a bulk, absorb, float cycle we tend to add to the SOC aging.
Yes. I think the “time-based” charge programs are at risk of accumulating excess SOC aging.
If the time based program says to hold an absorption charge for an hour, but the batteries only need 15 minutes, then overcharging could result.
My theory, anyways.
First, I don’t have an EKKO … yet. We have built our own custom system using two of the older 315Ah Lithionics batteries (The 320Ah came out just after we got ours) with a little over three years on them. Our configuration is a battery on either side of the Transit Van mounted internally (for weight balance). Charging is via a Victron MultiPlus 3000, Victron SmartSolar Charger MPPT 100/50, 400W Solar Panels and 3x Victron Orion TR Smart 12/12/30 Isolated DC to DC chargers (we have factory dual alternators and can charge the batteries via the Orion units via CPP2 connection on the Transit). Battery 1 is closer to the Multiplus, and other chargers as well as the load distribution panel. Battery 1 being near the Multiplus and Smart Orion chargers, it does see a little more heat than battery 2. However, they are connected in parallel by 4/0 cables. We do park in our garage when at home with temperatures in the garage never seeing below 40F or above 80F. Also plugged in to shore power when at home. Now, with all that out of the way, here are my numbers …
Battery 1 Battery 2
Rem Ah. 311Ah 312Ah
Total Ah 9021Ah 8233Ah
High Temp. 100F 95F
Low Temp. 42F 42F
Aging Temp 000039 000020
Aging SOC. 001304 001168
Let me know if there are questions.
Thanks,
Ken
Well, your aging factors look better than ours, that’s for sure!
Did you put this over on the linked survey?
Thanks, I just did enter them into the survey, sorry missed the link earlier.
I am wondering if you have checked your “Remaining Ah” accuracy by running your batteries down while noting the change in “Total Consumed Ah”. We have 31772 consumed Ah on our single 320 Ah Lithionics battery and also show 319 Ah remaining at 100% charge. We have only 481 SOC aging due to installing a solar system breaker and turning off solar when not using the Ekko. Also our Balmar only started working at 22442 Ah. SOC aging has accelerated since the Balmar was fixed. I have a chart I can share.
I haven’t verified the remaining AH with any method other than simply reading the app. Although the number of people reporting very close to 320Ah is starting to seem suspect.
In conversations with the tech team at Lithionics, it seems that storing the battery at any state other than 100% full is a good idea. So your solar disconnect while in storage probably makes good sense.
For the couple winter months it is not used, we turn off solar but leave the rv plugged in. The battery stays at 100% but stays in float unless there is a power outage. The aging SOC does not increase as long as it stays in float. My understanding is that leaving it plugged in during storage is considered to be an acceptable (though not optimal) method according to Lithionics literature.
can you help me understand the aH remaining? in your screenshot it shows 240 which matches the 75% charge on page one. is it really a metric of total life or just remaining in real time? I checked my batteries and my older battery had a higher number than my newer battery. So I am confused if this is lifetime as you mention in the video or real time? thanks
.
AH remaining is a real-time measurement. How much capacity is left in the battery right now. Think of that like a gas gauge in a car.
There is a “Lifetime” AH number on the detail page. That one is cumulative. Think of that like an odometer in a car.
Hi James, Thank you for your very informative video. We own a 2024 Grech with two Lithionics batteries at 630 AH each. Everything on mine appeared to be inline with yours except one item. Keep in mind we just purchased it new in Oct/Nov. The total consumed AH was 11461 which for as new as the rig is was high to me. The rest of my numbers as follows:
Battery SOC 99%
Battery Voltage 13.99V
Battery Current and Power 0.0
Remaining AH 628ah
Time 837d 19h
Highest Temp 95F
Lowest temp 37F
Aging factor temp 000014
Aging factor SOC 000299
Can Charger V 13.60V
Can Charge Current 230V
Can Charge Status FF05
Can Status 0000
Again thanks for your info, Rick
Thanks for the details!
I commented with a bunch of text info but be assured that once we get back to 100% SOC in a few days I’ll fill out your survey info.
Thanks, Keith!
Form completed x2
Awesome. Thanks!
Thanks for the vid! Good info!
Here’s our info:
2 battery no generator E23/T22 purchased in Oct. 22. 10 months of solid use (part-time full-timers) that connect to shore power about 25% of time. Storage is during winter months outside in the elements of the Denver area without shore power. Batteries and solar are never shut off. Lithionics guidelines have also been ignored so far. Battery health looks good but biggest surprise is a 7% difference in the consumed Amp hours between the batteries.
High temp: 107/107 (front/back battery)
Low temp: 37/37 (front/back)
Aging factor temp: 281/291 (front/back)
Aging factor SOC: 1425/1472 (front/back)
***Consumed Ah: 14863/15946 (front/back) – 7.3% difference.
Remaining Ah: 318/320 (front/back) – NOTE: calculated and probably rounded values due to being at partial charge currently. I’ll check again once we get back to 100% charge but don’t see anything concerning here).
I call the battery at the door opening my front battery which makes the other inaccessible one the back battery.
Keith and Ann Huffman
Backroad Buddies
Great video as always. It gave me lots of new insights into my 2×320 system in my EKKO. I too am at 319AH remaining after a bit more than 2 years. I have completed the survey for each battery. I manage my system just like you — always on, generally not plugged in but running on solar with the fan on at 50% all the time and the fridge always on so there is a diurnal rise and fall of the SOC. DM me if you need any more info on my batteries or my experience with them. Thanks for the video.
Interesting. Thanks for the data!
My battery was replaced in August 2023 during the 174 fix. I think my soc aging factor was around 1800 after a year of use and about 20k mileage. Since August of 2023 and 16k mileage my Soc aging factor is 126. I attribute that to keeping my solar off ( I installed a disconnect), so the Zamp controller doesn’t constantly alway try to drive the battery to a full charge. I only use the solar when we are stationary for a couple of days which doesn’t happen often. I don’t know if the soc aging factor is a real metric to be concerned about but I know I like having the solar disconnect to give me more control over the electrical system.
I installed a solar disconnect (breaker) in our solar charging system as well. But in practice, I hardly ever use it. We park under a carport, which kills most of the rooftop solar during storage. If I don’t want charging, I simply don’t connect the carport panels. On the road, we just leave it on and don’t worry about it.
I don’t know how much of a benefit what you’re doing is, but you’re likely not hurting your batteries with your practices!
The one fifth of the load reference vs one half the load for a two battery bank is actually not really a very meaningful number is it?
A more meaningful metric would be the type of cycling the bank as a whole is seeing, ie are you cycling very deeply vs cycling very lightly. Since the discharge/recharge cycle is how most batteries are rated for lifespan, aren’t they?
I am assuming the fact that each battery has a smart BMS that I further assume is communicating with the other four BMS’s is what is accounting for the much better performance of the batteries as a single bank vs the issues you mentioned with “dumb” wet lead batteries wired in the same fashion. I have always hated the watering and shuffling of my wet lead batteries in my truck, but it’s a brutal environment being outside and relatively near the pavement, ie extreme temperature variance though the year.
Happy 4th of July
The batteries do each have a BMS, but those 5 BMS units do not communicate directly with each other. The fairly even discharge seems to be inherent to the batteries – that’s all I can attribute it to.
As far as loading, we don’t use our EKKO any differently than anyone else. It’s not like we installed 3 extra air conditioners. So yeah, the loading on our batteries is fairly gentle.
And depth of discharge – for us is also much less. With a large battery bank, it’s rare that we run it down below 50% before driving again, which charges it right up. We do like knowing that we have a significant reserve in case we need it.
James, is there any special installation instructions to adding a battery to the battery bank? I currently have one battery and want to add a second battery to my SprEKKO.
Yes, there are special instructions. There are breakers and safety cut-offs, etc. I don’t think either Lithionics or Winnebago publishes end-user install instructions. They prefer you go to a dealer, and I understand their reasoning.
It’s not just like tacking on an extra car battery.
Very interesting video. I have a few questions.
1. I noticed that your firmware version is different than mine. I suppose it could be the different battery capacities. (Mine are 130 AH installed in a View), but is that something I need to update?
2 This RV was supposed to be touring the southwest last winter, but a shoulder replacement for one of us kind of left it sitting in the driveway over the Wisconsin winter. I kept it plugged in because solar isn’t much good under a few inches of snow, and never really went out and exercised the batteries – did that hurt anything?
3. Regarding battery cycling – there’s enough sun here that these batteries are alway sitting at 100% charge. Should i be leaving a light on when we’re home somthere is some discharge/charge action going on?
Lithionics has a few different types of batteries, and I assume the firmware will be different between them. Instructions for checking and updating firmware (if there’s an update available) are in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJslDYVr1_Y
In an over-winter storage scenario like you describe, it might have been better to follow Lithionics storage instructions. Here: https://lithionicsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Storage-Procedure-Rev-07-WEB.pdf
As to whether or not your batteries have been damaged by anything you’ve done to them, the only real way to know is to get out the app and look at the data.
How much of your original capacity is left? What do your “aging factors” look like.
Use that data to guide any modifications to your behavior.
These batteries have an internal heater, and the procedure is basically to keep it plugged in to shore power. So Im ok there. It never really got crazy cold this winter.